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00:00So was it the hardest job you ever had. It was very very hard but very meaningful not very enjoyable. Family was a blue collar family very very blue collar. So you're high flyers a World War Two that greatest man I ever knew. So you were in combat and you do expect that you would survive it was fairly dangerous. Well that is that means a lot of shooting and bombs and whatnot. But did you ever say the present maybe the tweets are too much. Never did. The president feels very very strongly that his tweeting goes around the press. Would you fix your time please. People wouldn't recognize me if my time was fixed but it just seemed to sway. All right. I don't consider myself a journalist and nobody else would consider myself a journalist. I began to take on the life of being an interviewer even though I have a day job running a private equity firm. How do you define leadership. What is it that makes somebody tick . So let's talk about first what it was like to be chief of staff to President Trump. Was it all that you thought it would be in terms of the difficulty more difficult than you thought. Are you pleased you did the job. It was certainly amongst the hardest jobs overhead in my life but I would say this as well after as much time as I had in the military. It was the most important thing I ever did for 18 months a staff the president the way I think a president should be staffed presenting him options presenting him getting the experts and with him to talk and hash things out. That's what the chief of staff does that was vitally important. And for 18 months I was there I think we staff the president very effectively. So it the hardest job you ever had. The most memorable job the most enjoyable job or just another very interesting job. Now it was very very hard but very meaningful not very enjoyable. But you know I mean it was its staff and the president did say so maybe you're trying to bring together not only a White House staff but the entire federal government to help him make the kind of decisions whether it's economic decisions social decisions or you know life and death wartime decisions in Washington. It's often said that people stab you in the back but also sometimes they stab you in the front and that's the job that often the Chief of Staff is said to have you get criticized by everybody . So did you feel that the criticism by people were the attacks on you just for any reason for something that was unfair or not tolerable you just got used to it. Yeah I would I would tell you I wasn't used to one of the things that struck me right away that I was not used to coming out of the military was the intense personal ambition that that people have and because if that gets out of hand which I think it was out of hand certainly before my time and it continued a bit while I was there people start to do things like leak to the press things that are untrue or half true not just towards people at the top like me but they're there their colleagues. One of the things I did very early on at the when I took over at the White House was get all of the staff together and there's a lot of them so I had to do several sessions and just said you know nowhere in the oath of office that you take to support defend the Constitution. I did states nowhere in there does it say that you should be talking to the press unless that's part of your job and authorized . Nowhere does it say you should be stabbing your colleagues in the back so that you look better you serve the nation and if you take the oath seriously you get a job and I want you to stay if you if you can't do that fight and find another place to work when you're in the military and you tell people you do X Y or Z they jump or they're in trouble or they're going to be court martialed or something when you tell people as chief of staff that they should do X Y or Z and they don't do it. What can you really do about it. Well let me go back to your original save in the military if you tell someone to do X Y or Z we expect people to question orders to push back. So I mean I can't as a commander know everything in the White House. You're right is not. I mean you could fire people ever had to fire a few people but very very few. They were very disruptive but I had good people. The vast majority of people David that work there are good people they just need some direction. So when Donald Trump was elected you were already retired from the military. I'd retired from the military less well and about eight months at that point never wanting to work again. And did you know Donald Trump at any point but I'm not in any way like that. So did you meet. You met him in the transition ise. I I received a phone call in late November on a Saturday and they asked me if I wouldn't consider coming up to bed instead of meet with the president elect and talked him about going into the administration my wife after the phone call asked me what was that all about. I explained to her and I saw what he thinks. She said Well you know if we're nothing else as a family we were a family of service so why did you go up and talk to them. So I went up the next day to bed minister talked to the president elect . Reince Priebus was there and a couple of other people we had a short chit chat but 10 days later he asked me to come up to New York City to Trump Tower went up there and he offered me the DHS job and then you say I accept right on the spot. And did you feel you really wanted to go in that job again. You know up to that point in time certainly no other way. My lifestyle was service to the nation. Obviously I had to get out there. I was in Marine Corps I was getting too old and whatnot but the opportunity to serve was was something I really look forward to . And DHS was a great job. The men and women at DHS are just phenomenal patriots in there. They're really unsung heroes. So you did that job for how long before you became chief right at six months I left the job in the thirty first of July. What did the president call you a few times before and say I don't know like my chief of staff and make a change. How did you get asked to do a staff job. It was around as a couple of days before it was announced. During my time at DHS I didn't go to the White House a lot didn't need to most Cabinet people are busy doing what they do. But he he and I had a previous discussion on a couple of things that relative to the staff. Anyways he called me and said hey I really would like you to come on over be the chief of staff or I need you to I need your kind of leadership to put at least in a direction my wife wouldn't want me to do this . It's a terrible job I don't want to do that. I said I really like DHS. The people were making a difference an awful lot of your agenda is wrapped up in DHS but he said I really need you to do this. So I did it the president asked. I did it so did men working for you get killed under you. It's part of the it's part of the lifestyle. It's not an easy part of the lifestyle . There are a lot of things that you might list that you would be woken up for in the middle of the night. I think I owe the Marine sailor soldier and their family at least to be woken up in someone to tell me this young man and young woman just died in a defense of their country . I'd like to talk about the job you did as chief of staff before that I can talk about your background. So where are you. Where are you originally from. I grew up in Boston and your family was a blue collar family very very blue collar. So your dad was a World War 2 vet. He worked two jobs his whole life. You know mailmen and railroad greatest man I ever knew. So you went to high school where St. Mary's High School and just outside of Boston. And when you graduated what did you do. I went to almost a year of college I. The war was a graduate 1968 the war was on. Coming from the kind of neighborhood I came from I mean every man in my life growing up as a boy was either a war war to vet or a Korean War vet. That's all they talked about. And so you know we had a draft. Back then it was relatively easy to get out of the draft. I mean you just had to come in with a doctor's note or go to college. A lot of deferments. I didn't want to get out and so when I passed my draft physical which would have brought me into the army like most of the guys in my neighborhood went in the Marine Corps. I went into Marine Corps and you became a lieutenant or what was your. I became a private. I went for private My Private First Class ultimately . Ultimately I made sergeant as an infantryman made sergeant. My mother was diagnosed with cancer so I get out the Marine Corps but stayed in a program that continued my training while I was going to college and as soon as I graduated from college University of Massachusetts in Boston I get commission went back in the Marine Corps and stayed forever. So the highest you can become really is a four star general star and you became a four star general became a four star Did. you ever expect when you were just getting in the Marine Corps you'd be a four star general. No I mean it when I was an enlisted Marine I wanted to be hopefully a NCO someday. That's Corporal I made sergeant 5th rank I ever held. OK so you're in the Marine Corps and as you rise up against me one of your assignments is to go into Iraq after the invasion in 2003. So you were in combat and you do expect that you would survive it was fairly dangerous. Well that is damage a lot of shooting and bombs and whatnot but we're marines you take that on as is is a possibility. But we were you know when we were designing the campaign plan you know a lot of things we did was to you know to understand the Iraqi army was nothing is even close to us. But we designed a strategy that would minimize the amount of damage to the country and the amount of death to the Iraqi army we went there in our mindset was that we were there to we're not there to conquer them but to liberate them. So we didn't want to kill a lot of them. And I mean the Army obviously you'd always try to not kill the civilian corps and the army going in. Think it would be over in one or two weeks and that people would be cheering you. Well they were cheering us which was almost everywhere we went. They came out in huge numbers but the attack part of it I mean was he in a sense was easy we know we're going to win we're going to get to Baghdad and know enlightening time. But what we kept asking in the Kuwait desert leading up to the invasion in March was who's going to take this over from us. You know Mr. Rumsfeld had come out very strongly and said we are not we the U.S. military is not going to get involved in nation building. And our question was OK Who were we going to turn that over to because we should start thinking about that now. And so the idea that we were going to leave quickly which we military did start to do but not have anyone to turn it over was really that was caused this great concern as military means. So did men working for you get killed under you . And so what do you do in that situation do you send a letter to the next of kin or how. How do you deal with that emotionally. Well I mean it's it's part of the it's part of the lifestyle. It's not an easy part of the lifestyle. You know when I was when I was a commander there when I went back for a subsequent tour I was a senior Marine commander on the ground and there were a lot of things that you might list that you would be woken up for in the middle of the night. And I only had two of them. A missing American because then we we had to go to general quarters to find that person. And then a death and people would say Why did you want to get woken up on the deaths. There's nothing you can do . That's why I think I owe the Marine sailor soldier and their family at least to be woken up and someone to tell me this young man just a young woman just died in the defense of their country . Let's talk about when you after you retired for a while before you joined the Trump administration you were in the business world or what were you doing. Not very much. I started working with the National Defense University which is part of DSD and then I just started to get a couple of opportunities to be on boards. I joined those boards but almost as soon as I joined them I was I was disengaging because I had I was in the process of going to DHS. Right. So you're on some corporate boards for the first time you're making more money than presumably you've made it in the Marine Corps and not huge money. So more than the Marine Corps. Right. But so going back into government it was actually another cut in salary but you didn't say anything about that. I guess they were happy with it. What was interesting going in to DHS was about fifty thousand dollars more than I made a year as as a as a four star. And then what I didn't know my wife said to me after a couple of weeks being at the White House she said I think our pay is wrong because the paycheck is quite a bit smaller. I didn't realize it took a pretty major pay cut to be the chief of staff and asked the president whatever else . Money's not relevant. So let's talk about your family for a moment. When you're a four star you're often traveling all over the place so your wife gets to travel with you and some of your assignments or not. How many different places did you have to move as a as a general. Well when I was my wife she loved that question when I was at in Miami my wife went to Guantanamo Bay for three years so we could have Thanksgiving dinner with the troops down there at the detention facility. I took her to Haiti. I took her to Honduras once maybe twice maybe Honduras and Guatemala one each. And then once to Peru or about Paris or London none of that. And so you have three children you fathered three children. Right. Your oldest son is in the military still. He's Lieutenant Colonel in the Marine Corps . Fairly recently promoted just back from his one of his tours from in Iraq. And you have a daughter daughter and what is she doing. Well she was with the FBI prior to that actually she was she was worked with these wounded men and women mostly men coming back from the wars at Bethesda Naval Hospital. And then she went in to the FBI issues with the hostage rescue team . It's one of the support people for several years. And you had another son who lost his life in military combat. That's right he was he started off as an enlisted Marine and then became a second lieutenant and was killed in Afghanistan. And did you and your wife say having two sons the Marines as a awful sacrifice for any family. No it's our way of life. It may sound strange to the listeners but it is a way of life and they make their own to make their own decisions. What would you say is the best training to be chief of staff in the White House and particularly with President Trump. What do you think is the best training. I think one you've got to tell the boss the truth when you don't think he's going down the right road not in front of a bunch of people. You don't think he's going down the right road to tell him that truth to power someone in the room has got to say at the beginning of every conversation and at the end is this good for America let's go forward now to chief of staff. So the chief of staff . Sounds like a good title. Everybody presuming the government is responsive to you. You can call any cabinet secretary and tell him what to do. Is that the way it works. I would not say I'd tell him what to do I'd suggest. I mean they are cabinet members. You know the president puts out as you know I mean you don't whether it's tweets or just his time with the press and he does a lot of discussion with the press. He puts out his feelings on different things more often than not I would get calls from the cabinet people saying Hey I just heard him say this. Is that a change. Should we react to it. So the president is never hesitant to to pick up the phone and talk to his own cabinet members. Do you ever say the present maybe the tweets are too much to keep up with or maybe you shouldn't tweet as much. Never did. The president feels very very strongly . Whether you agree with this or not very strongly that he's not dealt with by the press fairly and that his tweeting goes around the press and gets his his agenda wrote his word out to the world without having to rely on a press conference now . Let's talk about a few substantive issues early in administration when you were at the Department of Homeland Security. It was the issue of immigration the ban on immigration and so forth. Were you alerted to that when you were there and how do you think that ultimate is now working out . Just a couple of three days after I became the DHS secretary the EO came out on the so-called travel ban and you know as a sidebar I would say that the countries in the seven countries involved in the president's thinking were all dysfunctional. I mean Iran. You know everyone knows it's a bit of terrorism. The other countries were were dysfunctional. The entire population a Muslim population of those countries added up to about 11 percent of the world's population the point is those countries we had they don't have a process that we could bless and say the people that they say are coming out of those countries to come the United States for whatever reason there's no way to really tell who they are . Because these countries are in a state of collapse. It could have been done better. Back to David. The staff process if that had been when I was there say several months later that the idea that the president might want to do that he has strong feelings on immigration. We all know that we did run that through this process and in it and at least had a better release plan when you were at the White House. You also had the wall issue President really wanted to build a wall . You were quoted a few times as saying well it doesn't have to be a concrete wall can be see through or something like that . Was there a difference between you and the president on that and do you think the wall is a good policy. When I got to DHS I went to the experts the Customs and Border Protection people at that man you know the Bastion down there that manned the Watchtower and said Do we need a wall. They said or some physical barrier University said we need more. We have . Remember back in I think 2006 the Congress authorized over 650 miles of wall. And Senators Clinton Schumer and Obama all voted for it. So that was in 2006 650 miles what we what the CBP people were telling me is we want to improve that barrier and we can give you if you if you tell me I can get 300 more miles I can tell exactly where to put it. If you tell me I can have a thousand more Miles I'll tell you exactly where I want it. They also said that we want to be able to see through the wall because we want to be on the track what's going on on the other side and just as importantly according to them and their experts . We want the people that are contemplating jumping the wall to see us because if they see us they don't do it. Now he had a meeting twice he met twice with the leader of North Korea. Do you think that was a good idea to meet without advance preparation about what would happen. And do you think the policy of meeting actually usually works or you should always have advance preparation when you have these summit meetings . There's a lot of advance preparation there's a lot of advance preparation a lot of letters back and forth people at State and other places have their contacts there. But I I applaud the president in that he looked back on the last I don't know 70 years of trying to deal with the North Korean leadership and none of that was working. And he's the kind of guy I grew to know that wanted to have never tried personally . So pick the phone up and talk to the guy. I want to meet with him and try to develop a relationship. And that's that's who he is. But I think many times it was all the other stuff hasn't worked for 70 years. What the heck. Let's give it a try. Some people would say the president was very reluctant to criticize Putin for anything and he seemed overly friendly with him compared to other presidents. You think that's a fair comment . And what do you think it was. Well the explanation is much like with Kim. I mean he he. Things had not been working very well over the last eight ten thirty five years and he is you know he's again he's a pick the phone up and talked to the guy kind of guy was a complicated to have the presence family in the government at the time very an influence that has to be it has to be dealt with. And today if you were I don't mean I by no means any Mrs. Trump first lady is a wonderful person. If you had to advise somebody who's going to be a chief of staff in the future what would you say is the best training to be chief of staff of the White House and particularly with President Trump . What do you think is the best training. I think one you've got to tell the boss the truth when when you don't think he's going down the right road not in front of a bunch of people but when you don't think he's going down the right road to tell him that truth to power someone in the room has got to say at the beginning of every conversation and at the end is this good for America. So when you tell the president private I think you should do something different if you want to do. Did he like yell or does he just say Oh we did have a discussion about it . No we'd have a discussion on I'd say more often than not he said Okay let's bring them back in. So if you had to do it all over again would you have taken the job with keep your staff. Are you glad you took that job. Well again I was drafted into the job. But knowing everything you know. Yes. As hard as it was for I feel very strongly for 18 I don't know what's happened since but for 18 months President Donald J Trump on every issue was well staffed was well informed we gave him options. Well obviously because so as you look back on your career what would you say you're most proud of having achieved and did your parents live to see you become a general . My dad did one thing I will add is many things I would say to thing what did I achieve a for over 40 years I served and served the nation in peace and war. It goes without saying I'm most proud of my family and my my kids. But for over 40 nearly 45 years served the nation in peace and war served it honorably with integrity. So do you consider yourself retired or are you gonna be active in the business where I don't know how to retire . So what do you plan to spend most. No I have no idea what I'm going to do but I don't know how to retire. If you consider the highest calling of mankind private equity I'm not sure about that not sure about that David .

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The David Rubenstein Show: John Kelly

David Rubenstein sits down with former White House Chief of Staff General John Kelly for a conversation about working with President Donald Trump, his military career and his views on immigration and the Mexican border issue. The interview was recorded May 7 in Las Vegas. (Source: Bloomberg)

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