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00:00The Harvard Law Review and the Columbia Law Review you were flooded with job offers from the major banks . For 13 years did you think you had a chance to be on the Supreme Court. No one else . My whole life was to be a Supreme Court justice. When you first got on the court were there other justices saying we're happy to see you here. Let's go have dinner together. Justice O'Connor was the most welcome. Welcoming and very well . Would you fix your tie please. People wouldn't recognize me if my tie was fixed but it just seemed so sweet . All right . I don't consider myself a journalist and nobody else would consider myself a journalist. I began to take on the life of being an interviewer even though I have a day job running a private equity firm . How do you define leadership . What is it that makes somebody tick . When you went to Cornell your grades were obviously very good . You applied to law school at Harvard. You got into Harvard Law School. Was the class half women and half men or . In those Asian days I went to law school from 56 to 59 . In my entering class at Harvard Law School there were over 500 in the class . Neither of us were women . Big jump from Monday's class. He was a year ahead of me . There were five women in his class and today the Harvard Law School that's about 50 percent women . In your Harvard Law School class you did extremely well and you got onto the Harvard Law Review and you were near the top of your class. Maybe first or tied for first your class. But then when your husband needed to move to New York you wanted to transfer to Columbia Law School. And the dean of the Harvard Law School didn't think that was such a great idea. If you wanted to be a Harvard graduate is that correct. If I know how to spend money on housing the reason I didn't raise money was diagnosed. It tends to equal to . In his third year of law school . Those were early days for cancer cure . There was no such thing as chemotherapy. There was only massive radiation . We didn't know . Whether he will survive . And I didn't want to be a single mom. Jane my daughter was 14 months when I started law school. So we went into the state together as a family . Money had a good job with a firm in New York . And so I asked the dean. I thought it would be an easy answer if I successfully complete my legal education at Columbia. May I have a Harvard degree. Absolutely not. You must spend the third year here . I had the perfect football because there was a Cornell classmate of mine who had had her first year of law school at Penn . She transferred into our second year class . And I said to the D. Well this is this ólafur will be . We'll have her second and third year and will earn a degree . But it's I think universally understood that the first year of law school is by far the most important. She ISE year two and three. You wanted to it should make no difference. But I was told . Everybody's really sorry that. So you went to Columbia Law School in your class law degree is from Columbia. OK. And you did extremely well at Columbia Law School and the review there as well. Yes. So when the Harvard Law Review and the Columbia Law Review you were flooded with job offers from the major law . There wasn't a single firm in the entire city of law that would take a chance on me . I have said on three strikes against me when I was Jewish . And the Wall Street firms were just beginning to welcome the Jews . Then I was a woman . But the absolute killer . I was a mother because my daughter was 40 years old when I graduated from law school. So employers who might take a chance on a woman were not prepared to take a chance on another. So one of your law professors Professor Gunther got you after many efforts to clerkship with Judge Palmieri. Yes. Was that easy to do for him because you were a mother . Yes. He had no qualms about a woman. He had a woman as a law clerk before. But he was concerned . Southern District of New York is a busy port and sometimes he would need a first aid even on a Sunday . So Professor Gunther I found out about this years later. I didn't know at the time said to judge found Mary . Give her a chance and if she doesn't work at . There's a young man in class who is going into a downtown firm to really jump in and take over . And that was the carrot . There was also a step in the step ways. If you don't give her a chance I will never let them in another Columbia student too . That's how that's how I was living. My luggage is getting the first job was powerful high . So after your clerkship you ultimately got a position as a law professor at Rutgers . Yes we did an interview when I was working for the Columbia Project on International Procedure . And how did you get connected to the ACLU and your your trailblazing efforts in gender discrimination and gender law . It came a lab test for my students at Rutgers who wanted a course on women and their life . So I repaired to the library and inside of a month I had read every federal decision ever written about gender based distinctions in the law. It was no mean feat . There was precious little . And at the same time new complaints were coming in to the New Jersey affiliate of the ACLU complaints of the kind. The ACLU had not seen before . One group of complainants where public school teachers . For put so-called maternity leave when their pregnancy began to show . Because the school district worry we don't want the little children to think their teacher swallowed a watermelon . These women were the lead was unpaid. And there was no guaranteed right to return . They began to complain . So it was the two things coming together the students wanting to learn about women's status under the law and these new complainants coming to the ACLU . And for me it was such a tremendous growth for good fortune because up until . The start of the 70s. It simply wasn't possible to move court . In the direction of recognizing women as people . Equal citizenship stature when President Clinton became president you were obviously somebody being considered and President Clinton said well women don't want her. I have written that coming unglued Roe v. Wade . And it was not 100 percent applauding that decision . You won the number of cases for the ACLU on gender discrimination and became quite well known. You later taught at Columbia. But you were asked to go on to the U.S. Court of Appeals the District of Columbia by President Carter. Were you surprised to get that appointment that did you want to be a judge or were you happy to be a professor . President Hollande deserves enormous credit for what the federal mandate looks like today . When he became president . He noticed that the federal judges all looked like him. That is they were all white and they were all male . And Carter appreciated that that's how the great United States looks . So he was determined to put women and members of minority groups . On the federal reports. In numbers not as one of the time curiosities I think he pointed out like 20 why we're making District 10 ships and loving loving them to clerks. And I was I think the last and the end. So you served 13 years on the court of appeals the District Columbia . And after 13 years did you think you had a chance to be on the Supreme Court or do you think this was something that might not happen . No one thinks . My aim in life is to be a Supreme Court justice. This isn't realistic. There are nine of us and a lot has a lot to do with who in particular line at a particular time . So growing up I never had an idea of being any kind of a judge . As I said women were barely there on the bench. When Lynn Carter became president there was only one woman on a federal court of appeals . She would surely have said that on the 9th Circuit . He made her the first ever secretary of education and then there were none. Again Condit changed that and no president ever linked back to the way it was. Reagan didn't want to be outdone by Carter so he was determined to pick the first woman and the U.S. Supreme Court. He made a nationwide search and came up with a spectacular choice. And Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. When President Clinton became president you were obviously somebody being considered. And then President Clinton talked to somebody who was pushing for your appointment. Daniel Patrick Moynihan and President Clinton said well women don't want her. How could that have been the case when you were the leading lawyer in gender discrimination. Why would women have not wanted you. For some women not wanted you on the Supreme Court against some women. And most women were overwhelmingly supportive overwhelmingly supportive of the nomination. But I had written a comment. V Wade . And it was not 100 percent . And applauding that decision. What I said was . The court had an easy target because the Texas law was the most extreme in the nation . Abortion could be had only if necessary to save the woman's life . Doesn't matter that our health would be ruined. She was a victim of rape or incest . I thought Roe v. Wade was an easy case in the Supreme Court could have held that most extreme law unconstitutional and put down its pen . Instead . The court wrote an opinion that made every . Abortion restriction in the country. Illegal in one fell swoop . And that was . Not the way the court ordinarily operates and waits it it waits till the next case in the next case. Anyway it was a . That some women felt that I should have been 100 percent in favor of Roe v. Wade because I wasn't. So President Clinton met with you and obviously had a good meeting and he offered you the appointment and the confirmation went pretty well. Would you say 96 3 3. Hang Seng said so yes . Now been on the court for 26 years. And therefore in total we've been on the federal judiciary for 39 years. So in 26 years on the Supreme Court when you first got on the court were there other justice saying we're happy to see you here. Let's go have dinner together. Let's socialize. Or were they just kind of standoffish admit. What was your relationship with Sandra Day O'Connor like when you got on the court as the second woman on the court . The court was an unknown territory to me. I worked at the court of appeals since the birth standing around . And every once in a while . Judge David Basil Ahmed who was quite senior . They would call me and say Ruth we're going to Crown Heights for lunch . Who was crying I was the biggest liquor and distributor in the D.C. area . And before we went to his warehouse we would stop and the Supreme Court and pick up Justice Brennan and Justice Marshall . I knew just to Scarlet Fu . Court of Appeals days together by New Justice Clarence Thomas was also on the D.C. Circuit . But Sandra . Was as close as I came to having a big sister. I did have a big sister but she died in my infancy so I never knew her . Just as South Anna Edwards . The most welcoming gave me some very good advice not only when I was a new justice but during my first chance about because Justice O'Connor had breast cancer . And she was on the bench nine days after her cancer surgery . So she was very keen about what I had to do she said we have chemotherapy Friday. That way you'll get over it during the weekend. You can do that . Now the best way to win a case if you're arguing one before the Supreme Court is to write a great brief to write a to be a great oral advocate. Does that the oral argument really make a difference or the brief really make a difference. Or what's the best way to win a case in the Supreme Court. For somebody who might want to argue a case to have a case it's strong on the merits and are limited at the court is not a debate . I'd say the two components of advocacy. The brief is by far the most important thing to me start with and what we end up with. Let me go back to Chambers . Oral argument is fleeting. If somebody wants to be a Supreme Court clerk you just send in a letter applying or how does that work . He gets hundreds and hundreds of applications . The court meets from October to June. More or less. So what do the justices do in July and August today. Sit around reading briefs. Sure they do other things . One business in file has I saw right away throughout the year is the death penalty business which the court to thank our firing squad . Very often when an execution date is set there's an 11th hour application for a stay . No one justice is responsible for the final vote. We are opposed wherever we are in the world. But in addition most of us take some time to teach. So today when you are thinking about the court what is it that gives you the greatest hope for the future about the court and the way it works. I think that all of us will be the institutions for which we work . And we want to leave it . In good shape we family . And if somebody wants to be a Supreme Court clerk each justice gets I think four clerks who you just send in a letter applying or how does that work. Just hundreds and hundreds of applications . My boss says . For Artworks . Are other charges other federal charges . Law professors tend to write glowing letters of recommendation . Everyone is the best and the brightest that ever graduated from this law school . But my colleagues on other federal courts tell me the straight story. So very often I'll get a call from another federal judge saying I have a class this year . Who I think would be just right for you though isn't in my best strength among numbers . So we have a few questions from people who are attending today . If you could change one thing about the Constitution what would it be and why. So I guess you probably if you were a founding father or founding mother what might you have put in the Constitution that didn't quite get in there . Well all the equal rights amendment to Michael McKee . I explain it this way . When I take out my pocket constitution to show my granddaughters I can show them the First Amendment that guarantees freedom of speech in France . But I can't point to anything that says . Women and men are persons of equal citizenship stature . Every constitution in the world written since the year 1950 has the equivalent of that statement . Men and women are persons . Equal in stature before the law . So I would like my great grandchild to have a constitution that includes that statement that this is a fundamental premise of our society just the way freedom of thought and expression . What gives you the most hope for the future . My granddaughters . I'm very proud of my eldest granddaughter who is a lawyer cares a great deal about our country and about its highest values. She and other young people like her. I think . Will help us get back on track . What do you think is the biggest threat to our democracy . A public that doesn't care about preserving the rights we had . You know that great speech on Liberty by Ted Flirt and . And he says it's the fire . He said the fire dies in the hearts of people. There is no constitution and no jobs that can restart . So my faith is in the spirit of liberty. So when you go to a restaurant these days can you actually have dinner without a selfie request or people coming up for autographs. Is it possible for you to do that anymore. It's amazing. I am eighty six and a half years old and everyone wants to take the Kevin Cirilli . Justice Ginsburg I want to thank you very much for a very interesting conversation . Thank you for your service your service to our country over thirty nine years .

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Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg's 2019 Interview With David Rubenstein (Part 2)

The late U.S. Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg spoke with David Rubenstein on Sept. 19, 2019 on "The David Rubenstein Show: Peer-to-Peer Conversations." In the wide-ranging conversation, they discussed Ginsberg’s life, law career, and time on the Supreme Court. (Source: Bloomberg)

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