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  • 00:00This is my kitchen table and also my filing system over much of the past three decades. I've been an investor the highest quality of mankind. I've often thought as private equity. And then I started interviewing Oh I watch your interviews because I know how to do it. I've learned in doing my interviews how leaders make it to the top. I asked him how much he wanted. He said 250. I said fine I didn't negotiate with him. I did no due diligence. I have something I'd like to sell and how they stay there. You don't feel inadequate now because the only the second wealthiest man to rise out right. The man who has almost single handedly built the largest private company in the United States is Charles Coke. He's well known to the public for some of his political interests. But the truth is his passion is his company his family and his philanthropic interests. At 85 years old he's still going very strong today. I'm going to be joining conversation with two authors. One of them is Charles Koch a well-known business person. We'll talk about him in a moment. And Brian Hooks a head of the foundation we'll talk about in a moment. So Charles and Brian welcome to our show. Thanks for having us. Yeah thanks David. Appreciate it. You are Charles 85 years old. And most people who are business people were 85 years old are not writing books about social entrepreneurship or philanthropy. They're doing other things. Why did you decide at this age you wanted to write another book with Brian. Well actually it's I started on this book are doing the research probably 60 years ago with these ideas. And and then I started writing it five years ago. And my gifts whatever they are are mainly in abstract concepts math other abstract concepts. So the book was mainly about theory and history. It wasn't measuring up. And in the meantime under under Brian's leadership it stand together. We were using these ideas to empower more people to actually show how it works today and transforms people's lives. And so I said at the end I said Brian I don't have a book that I believe will do what I want. You need to come in and help me finish it. Get it read Greek restructured. And that's what he did. The reason I wrote it is is and I started on it five years ago is is I wanted to help everybody have the benefit of the ideas that transformed my life and enabled me to achieve more than I ever believed possible and have done so for many others. And those are basically what I call the principles of human progress. And those start with recognizing that everyone has a gift. Everyone has something to offer which they will do if they're empowered to do so. The essence of your philanthropic philosophy and your life philosophy. If I could put it in my words is that it's bottom up not top down. In other words empower people at the bottom and let them make decisions and let those filter off as opposed to people at the top telling people the bottom what to do. Is that more or less correct. Well it's. Yeah but it's I mean this starts with with recognizing that everyone has something to offer and if they're not and they're not contributing. We need to work with them and we can to empower them so they all the institutions in society need to be focused on that rather than telling them what to do in limiting them and stifling that. Brian in addition to writing this book together how have you to work together over the years. Well I've worked with Charles in one way or another for 20 years now. And so Stand Together is a philanthropic community. We work with several hundred business leaders and philanthropists to try to improve our effectiveness in helping empower people to live better lives. Now running a stand together must be not easy but you have no gray hair. How come I hide it. Well I do well to say it's been 20 years and they've been productive but long years. He gets story and day A but that's I mean that keeps it. I have all the gray hair while it's like me my hair is dark but I diet gray so I look more mature. Brian let me ask you a question. I've been involved a bit in philanthropy myself and when I decide I want to give money away to somebody I call them up and they usually are willing to take it or something like that. Why does somebody need your organization to help them give away the money that they already have. What do you do for somebody that they can't do themselves. Well the whole thesis of stand together and what we've learned over the last 20 years or so is that as effective as individuals can be on their own we can all be more more effective. We have a greater impact when we pool our knowledge and we combined our resources. So give me an example. You know one of the issues that we've worked on a lot is criminal justice reform and criminal justice system which is you know full of terrible tragedies has been kind of stuck in a rut for at least a generation. And there's been a lot of good attempts to try to make progress but they tended to be kind of narrowly focused. And the real breakthrough in criminal justice came when we combined a whole lot of different projects a whole lot of different programs. And it was that combination that allowed us to kind of unstick the system and now make some real progress. So let's talk about racial related issues. The Black Lives Matter issue has brought racial inequality to the forefront. How has your company tried to address this by being more inclusive or dealing with the problems that often people who are African-American might have in our society. Well not only the company but but stand together in our views on this is is we welcome this conversation about that about racial inequalities and what I'd look at the situation today. It's a case of the sins of the fathers being visited on the sons for seven generations. I mean you look at what what this country practiced. I mean slavery reconstruction with horrors separate but equal. Separate but unequal. And so today whether there is racism in it or not we have institutional bias that is holding black Americans back. And so that's why we're working on criminal justice reform on changing the educational system changing regulations such as occupational licensure which keeps people who start with nothing from competing and so on through all the institutions and society. We're working to change those to bring that into into true system of equal rights and mutual benefit. Now the truth is most people in the world do not know Charles Koch for being a gigantic philanthropist. They know you for running this gigantic privately owned company. So I'd like to talk a little bit about how that came about. So you grew up in. You were born in Kansas. You grew up there. Your father was a person who didn't say you know I'm going to pamper you and I want you to have a nice spoiled life. He made you work pretty hard. Is that right. Oh my God. Is that true. No. He he announced to me early that he didn't want me to be a country club bum. He wanted me to amount to something. So he had me work at it all my spare time starting at age six. This is hard to believe but. But we have photographs of me doing it. So you ultimately went off to M.I.T. a pretty good school. What did you want to be when you went down my teeth. I had no idea. I. Well I knew the reason I went to M.I.T. is the language was math rather than English. And I was so much better at math and English than I thought I'd have a better chance of succeeding there. And so. So I I started taking different courses and I took so many that I couldn't get a degree in any specific subjects. So I got it in general engineering. And then I said well I need I need something more specific. So I thought nuclear was the wave of the future and I would have entrepreneurial opportunities in the future from that. When I got in it got my degree my master's degree in nuclear engineering. I learned that no it people are really worried about safety. So it's going to be so controlled and regulated. I don't. I won't have those opportunities. So I went back and got a master's in chemical engineering. OK so the last thing you wanted to do was to go back to Kansas and work for your father. I assumed since he was a little bit of a hard taskmaster. So you went to work for Arthur DEVERALL which is a consulting firm in the Boston area is that right. Right. I got in management consulting and I got to consult on things that were abstractions like ISE strategies and innovation. And I said wow this is this is Ed I need to be an entrepreneur. And and and so there were a lot of companies coming out of M.I.T. from professors and students. I knew I said well I'm to I want to join one of these startups and invest and and start a career as an entrepreneur. So how did your father lure you back from the Boston area to Kansas to work for him which you didn't think was probably going to be that much fun. Well I took the first time he asked me I said I said Pop no I got I got my career ideas and I want to be independent. And so he called me back and he said son as you know my health is poor. It's so poor that I'm not really able to lead the company anymore. And it's not doing well. And I don't have long to live. So either you come back to run it or I'll sell it and I'll let you run this business that that you already own an interest. Dan that makes fraction dating trace any way you want to start with. And the only thing you need my approval on is to sell an. And I said well I don't. Well I said to myself I don't think I'm about to get a better opportunity than this. So I came back and he was absolutely true to his word. He totally turned it over to me and then gotten me me and the other businesses. And I was able to contribute from the beginning but I still didn't feel whole. So everybody who's watching this will want to know how do you take a 12 million revenue company to roughly one hundred and twenty billion revenue company without going public. What is the key secret to doing that. Well the secret was that that I was as I said I didn't feel I was fully using my capabilities. So I read everything I could from all different all relevant disciplines all different perspectives to find principles that I could use and apply in the business in my life to enable me to believe in myself. And I started to in business and they worked. They work beyond my belief and beyond anything I hope for and that absolutely transformed my life. And so my whole life has been looking for principles that will enable me to contribute or improve the principles were implying and better apply. And and so every day is like I'm reborn. Okay. And you've said over your dead body will this company ever go public. Is that right. Oh I didn't mean that literally but. You're not intending to take a public right. No absolutely. No it's. I don't. We couldn't have done what we did if we republic. I don't believe. I don't know your company really that well. It seems to be in the oil and refining businesses but things like that. A lot of technical things. But one of the companies you bought the biggest acquisition you ever made was Georgia Pacific. And when I read that in the newspapers I said what are they buying a forestry company for. And it seems that worked out extremely well from reading the newspapers. What was your thinking about Georgia Pacific. I was just curious. As a business matter what drives us and what's made a successful is we started by understanding and applying the principles of human progress. And then we we we took those and codified them into a management framework that we call market based management. And that has five dimensions. And then we use that to create virtuous cycles of mutual benefit which is as I say starts with building capabilities that will enable us to create value for others. So we've never considered ourself as industry bound. We consider ourselves capability bound. So we're constantly trying to build new capabilities that will open new opportunities. And then when we get I get it a new opportunity then that leads to us building. New capabilities. Which leads to new opportunities. And that's why we're all these things and the only place where we're in producing fossil fuels is in refining. We're out of all the others. And that's now just a fraction of our total business. Whereas a decade ago it was like half. Now you point out in your book that you're a large producer of ethanol refiner of ethanol which were used as corn and so forth but that you're against the subsidies the federal government is giving to ethanol now. Doesn't that cause you some problems in your business world when you're against the subsidies but you're actually doing a lot of the ethanol production. We oppose all subsidies all all restrictions on competition. Innovation are are providing opportunities to people who start with nothing. Where we oppose all those. And and and it's not just ethanol like we oppose the border adjustment tax although that would make us a lot of money by raising the price of our consumer goods for our customers. I mean it's not out to us steak. It's because we believe we succeed by creating value for others. I mean we want to be the preferred partners of of all our constituencies everybody in every group that's important to us. And the way you do it is by creating value for them applying mutual benefit. So Charles you are a teenager by the standards of some people who are running companies Warren Buffett. I think it's just celebrate his ninetieth birthday. So you're you know five years younger than him. And so I assume you could keep doing this for quite a while. Do you have any plans to make certain that the company will be continued to be run by a family or your father started the company. You've been running it for a long time. Your family have any interest in running it or are you going to eventually turn it over to a professional managers. We have multiple people who could lead it and I won't be the one deciding that it'll be the board of directors. And my son wouldn't want it unless he felt that he was the best one who could make the most company most successful in in in continuing to apply these ideas to create value in society. So would you have any interest if President Biden invited you just to come and take a tour of the White House. You wouldn't be interested in that just to see what it looks like. If he wants to talk about how to empower people boy I would be there in a nanosecond. So a number of years ago you decided to get involved a little bit more than you had been in politics by supporting candidates or so forth. And as a result of that your image became very much. I'd say right wing and let's say A.I. Democratic in some respects some people might say how are you now trying to change what you did a number of years ago getting involved in in political causes or so forth. Well I was I started in this work nearly 60 years ago. And for the first 50 I wasn't involved in politics at all. And then we we decided we needed to get policies as well as these that as work with each other institutions that will empower people. And so we got into it by some in a partisan way. In 2010 that was the first election we got in. And so we tried that for a few years and it wasn't that successful. And it was many ways counterproductive. So now our our work in in politics is is on a nonpartisan base and we're looking for champions who will who will advocate for policies that will empower people. Rather than get try to get power over them which stifles people at any given time. Politics has never been more than 10 percent of all of the efforts that we've been involved with but it's taken an outsized view in terms of people's understanding of our work. When we did get involved in politics we learned quickly that partnership works a whole lot better than partisanship. And so as Charles says that's the approach we're taking now in public policy and politics. Not doesn't matter if you're a Republican or a Democrat. If you've got a vision for policy that can improve people's lives we want to partner with you. And we found that that works really really well. Even under some pretty challenging circumstances. And so for a while when you are involved in politics you were the ogre for some people on the Democratic Party side or the left side. Did that bother you. And are you trying in any way to change the image that you got or are you basically saying I'm doing what I'm going to doing. I don't care about the image so much. Well I mean we need to we need to attract support. So we want that. But as I've said my main driver through my life is to believe in myself. And so I have to do what I think is right. What what will allow me to fully develop my capabilities and use them to contribute. And so that's what I do. And but I. When we have criticisms and I to me that's Karl Popper's scientific method develop a proposition or an innovation and then not go around and find things to support it but find challenges to it encourage challenges to it to find the flaws in it. So when when when we're criticized an attack we'd look at OK what are we doing wrong. And then part of what we saw. Well we're approaching this in a partisan way. That's wrong. We've got to approach this in a in a non-partisan way. Suppose Joe Biden were to call you and say look I'd like to hear your views. I want bipartisanship. What would you tell him he should do and would you be willing to consult with him. What I would say OK let's. We can help you when when you're pushing policies that that show you believe in people that you want to empower people. So so they so they can contribute and succeed. And when you're when you have policies that we believe will stifle people and keep them from realizing their potential then we'll oppose that. And that's what we've done with with every president. I don't I've never talked to or met a president elect or a president. I have met him before and after they were presidents but never when they were. So that's not what I get engaged in. Given your wealth given your prominence I would have thought by now some presidents would. I'm invited to a state dinner or ask you to come in and advise them. I have been invited but I've asked the question. Not during with the president of course that I've asked the question. Well what is it. Are we going to talk about substance or is this just meet and greet and and show. And it was it's for show. And I said well I'm not interested in show. I mentioned getting some done. So I have not gone to any of them. I don't think I've ever been in the White House in fact. So would you have any interest if President Biden invited you just to come and take a tour of the White House. You wouldn't want me interested in that just to see what it looks like if he wants to talk about how to empower people. Boy I would be there in a nanosecond if you had a chance to talk again to your father and say look what I did. What do you think he would say to you. Was he proud of what you did. You want him to be proud. Would you want to be proud of what you did. I think he would be blown away just as I am. I mean I can't believe it. That we've done and I haven't done them. What's what's accomplished this. Are these ideas. Are these principles. So I just happened to learn them and be turned on by them. And and then they applying them in everything we do and and then the people do it. That's the key. No one person can do all this. You do it by empowering people empowering your ploys and empowering people through society so they can contribute. They can innovate. What is the meaning of leadership. You how do you become a leader. What are the most important traits that you think separates non leaders from leaders. Are they a true leader. Is someone who makes the people around him better or be around her better. And so. So what you have to do is find what you're good at. What your gift is and focus on that. And then partners partner with those who with whom you share vision and values and have complementary capabilities. And that's what I've done. I have a narrow range of abilities. And I've where I've succeeded is when I partner with people who were good at all the other things that needed to be done that I wasn't good at. And I focused on that. And then. And then to draw on their knowledge and empower the people around you. So you get the benefit of everybody's knowledge and ability. That's what a leader does. And you focus on not what is good for you but good for the overall organization and good for society.
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The David Rubenstein Show: Charles Koch, Koch Industries CEO

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February 11th, 2021, 11:23 AM GMT+0000

Charles Koch turned his father's small business into one of the most profitable private companies in the U.S., now he's heavily focused on philanthropy that empowers people. Koch and Brian Hooks, the head of Koch's philanthropic endeavors, discuss their new book "Believe in People" on the latest episode of "The David Rubenstein Show: Peer-to-Peer Conversations." The interview was recorded on Dec. 8, 2020. (Source: Bloomberg)


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